Today our caravan is going to take a little trip to the Problem of Evil. You will have to excuse me for the lack of humor in this post as I think my funny bone may have come spewing from one of various outlets during my recent stint as a partially digested oyster fountain. Anyway, being as that I can't think of anything humorous to say, on to the evil.
The Problem of Evil is, basically, the completely reasonable claim that to consider there to be an all-loving, all-powerful god who exists as the cause of the world as we know it, where evil not only exists but often flourishes, leads to a contradiction. All loving (at least as we use the term loving, which is actually the only way it can be used if we are to understand it) would require that the creator god desire that evil not exist and all powerful would require that the creator god had the ability to create an existence without evil. Therefor the existence of evil leads to the reasonable conclusion that this creator god does not exist. Its a simplified version of the argument, but plenty good enough for our purposes.
When confronted with this sound reasoning, most believers I know attempt to take the easiest road to avoid the contradiction and put forth the claim that evil does not actually exist, but that what we call evil is merely the lack of good. Let's start by examining this claim.
To say that evil does not exist but is merely the absence of good is completely arbitrary. It is, in fact, no better supported than to state that good does not exist but that it is merely the absence of evil. There is no basis to consider one as an actual existence that should not be extended to the other. Aside from this, to say that there is no such thing as evil leads us nowhere in our attempt to pardon a creator god from his responsibility for what we term evil acts.
The fact is, without evil, all acts are simply different degrees of good. Raping and murdering infants is good, just not as good as saving a kitten from a burning house (or saving a house from a burning kitten, depending). Without the existence of evil as a separate classification for acts, then what we term evil is more appropriately called less good. Because of this, when we lay out a scale of possible goods, what we find is that when we consider the rape and murder of one infant as compared to the rape and murder of a million, or the destruction of the entire human race, we see that infanticide is actually much closer to the ultimate good end of the scale than the least good end.
Now, to counter this undesirable circumstance one may try and draw a distinction by saying that what we term evils are acts that are not less good but acts that are devoid of good. Of course, this leaves us with the above mentioned infanticide being equivalent to taking a penny from someone's car ashtray without asking. Neither act can be defined as good so without the existence of evil on which to judge the scale of the act, and without being able to say that one is less good than the other, all acts that are not good are equally reprehensible. Thus the atrocities of Hitler are on equal footing with the cookie your child pilfered from the cookie jar.
Even beyond all this the problem does not go away simply because we re-word it to the 'Problem of Lesser Good' or the 'Problem of the Absence of Good'. The creator god would still be responsible for creating beings that commit such acts.
Due to these unavoidable circumstances, which are clearly counter to what we as human beings understand as the nature of good and evil, many of the more 'intellectual' of theists have abandoned such an absurd objection to the existence of evil and have instead focused their energies on trying to defend the position that evil is a necessity if man is to be freewilled. This objection to the Problem of Evil, however, is equally fraught with inconsistencies. To illustrate this let's first examine freewill, as it would necessarily exist in a god created universe, and see how free we actually are in such an existence.
With the Problem of Evil, freewill is the theists stronghold. When faced with the absurdity of the existence of atrocities such as rape and child abuse and genocide in a universe created by an all-loving, all-powerful creator god, the believer quickly seeks shelter behind the seemingly indestructible walls of the desirability of man being free to choose. However, the stronghold is in reality a house of straw and it takes nothing more than a weak breeze to bring it crashing to the ground.
To illustrate the problem with the evil is a necessity for freewill excuse I like to pretend I am driving down a highway (the sound effects I make as I'm doing this aren't crucial to the concept so vroooom or don't vroooom, its up to you)... Anyway...
Let's look at our existence as a highway. The road surface is our range of possible choices and our traveling down the road is our traveling through time. On this road there exists several lanes, these are the possible choices we can make at any moment in time. We can freely change from one lane to another, this is what we call freewill. But, this road does not exist in a vacuum. On either side of this road lay open fields, however, our access to these fields is restricted by walls. Though we can change lanes on the road, or make choices from a selection of possible choices over time, we can not leave the road, or choose beyond our narrow selection of possibilities. I, for instance, can not choose to flap my arms and fly to Mexico for a margarita at sunset. A mentally challenged person can not choose to be a genius. I can not choose to eat the Empire state building. In reality, when compared to the environment of possible choices I could make were my freewill unrestricted, the lanes of choices I can make within my restricted freewill are already severely limited.
What we can see from this highway analogy is that to appeal to the ability to choose evil as a necessity if we are to be freewilled is, again, completely arbitrary. I am restricted from doing a nearly infinite amount of things but that does not, according to the theist, impose on my freewill. Yet, to restrict me from doing just one more thing, let's say removing a lane on the highway that allows me to choose to harm another human being, they claim would destroy freewill. Obviously this freewill requirement is not a reality but a excuse created to allow for belief in an all-loving, all-powerful god despite the existence of evil.
In actuality, even if we were to allow that the existence of evil is necessary to give man a free choice (and that freewill could actually exist in a created universe (two huge allowances)) this still does not help the theist in their quest to remove god from responsibility for evil. The insurmountable problem for the theist is that even if the existence of evil is necessary to give man a free choice this does not mean that a creator god is not directly responsible for creating beings which will choose to do evil. Just because I have the free ability to choose to commit murder does not mean that by not committing murder I forfeit my freewill.
There are people in existence who, when faced with a choice between doing what is 'right' and doing what is 'wrong', will always try and do the 'right' thing. Let's take one such person named Sam and use him as an example.
No matter the circumstance Sam finds himself in he will always attempt to do what he thinks is the 'good' thing to do. This is not to say that Sam never makes a mistake, there is always the possibility that what he thinks to be good is not actually good (we will save the discussion about the actual existence of an objective good for another day), but his lack of absolute understanding is not his fault as that is the type of being he is (one that has incomplete understanding of existence, whether by creation or evolution). So even though Sam may make mistakes from time to time his decision is always to do good and therefor his actions, whether good or not, are performed with good intent. Now, since Sam never chooses to intentionally do evil, does this mean that Sam has no freewill? Of course not.
You see, even if freewill could exist in a god created universe and man had to have a choice between doing good and evil to exercise his freewill, there is no necessity in creating beings that will choose evil. By creating beings that will choose to do evil, this creator god is directly responsible for the evil that is done. There is no reason that a god responsible for all that exists would not have the power to create men, like Sam, who will only choose to do good even though they have the ability to choose to do evil. It is not a matter of removing the beings freewill, but simply a matter of only creating good beings.
But, some may protest, what is being overlooked is that the creator god did create man perfect in the being of Adam, but because of his freewill Adam choose to do evil and thus condemned all future men, as if this removes their god's responsibility. The flaw here is obvious. Adam could only make the choices god created him with the ability to make.
Look at it this way. Let's go to our god perspective again. Now, here we are about to create some little peach, or red, or brown, or yellow, or black, or tan (Mmmmm, a Black and Tan), or fluorescent, beings. Now, we have no criteria by which we must create these beings. We be being an all powerful being, so pretty much whatever we want to create we can create. What we have decided to create is a being called Adam who will be the pace-setter, if you will, for a bazzillion future beings. Being (how many times can I use this word in one paragraph?) as that we have no blueprint to follow in creating Adam, we can look at this creation process as our having the ability to select one Adam from an infinite (hypothetically) number of Adams (the principle is the same, if you can't follow the reasoning there just trust me, and don't use cutlery unsupervised). Now, can you imagine an Adam that would have chosen freely to not do evil? If so, then for you to create an Adam who will choose freely to eat the proverbial apple is no one's fault but your own. So, do the math. Who is to blame for the evil?
Well, that about does it for our journey into the problem of evil. It was a little longer than I'd planned and sadly, almost completely devoid of funny. Sorry about that. Hopefully I will find my sense of humor soon (though I imagine it will require a good washing) and this blog will return to its previous joviality. Until then, feel free to comment on your understanding of the existence of evil. Though I might have lost my funny, my argumentative is solidly intact (its made of titanium, you know).
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What kind of life would we have if there were no obstacles to overcome? If there was no misery would we recognize the value of joy?
Would we receive as much pleasure from quiet contemplation of the rose? None of these questions have any answers because we do have the balance of good vs. evil with which to measure.
Many years ago I owned a dog that was stolen off her chain while I was in the house vacuuming. There was an animal theft ring operating in my area, they were selling stolen dogs to research labs. A neighbor saw the theft but by the time he got outside, they were pulling away at a high rate of speed. I was heartbroken, and cancelled a date with a fellow that I was dating casually at the time.
He was a research scientist, he didn't understand my grief. I saw a bundle of fur with wagging tail and a heart that beat. All he ever saw was a good subject for research. He wasn't an evil man, he saw the benefit to mankind that my dog could, if used for the correct testing procedures, bring to humans. I experienced the pain of her loss.
That was what he was in awe of. His interest was clinical. He didn't see the beauty of color, his interest was in the components that created that color. He didn't experience the joy of flowers blooming, he understood the science behind it, that was what enthralled him. That lack of connection even extended to an interest in the mechanics of sex rather than the pleasure of it. Needless to say, he didn't turn me on.
What I need for my spirit or soul goes beyond what can be explained by science. I need the soothing purr of a cat, the sound of music, the wonderful world of color we live in. The right to choose my own path, and to hope it's the right one. I believe in God because to do so means I'm never lonely even when I'm alone. I also believe that we have to know evil to know good, and to strike a balance between the two. Isn't it great that in this world there are all kinds of people and ideas and science? Isn't it great that we can all make our own choices?
Sherry
"If all of us were created to choose to do good, then there would be no such thing as evil, no such thing as freewill."
I see no reason to think this so. It is merely something people say, because of having heard their religious leaders and apologists state such, without examining whether or not there is any reason to take the statements as truth. As I wrote in the blog, if evil has actual existence it does not require us acting upon it in order to exist. It can exist (as a concept or whatever ontology you assign to it) without anyone ever choosing it. As a matter of fact, if evil actually exists it must exist whether anyone chooses it or not, otherwise it does not actually exist. Freewill also is not dependent on us choosing evil. If freewill exists, I can have freewill whether I choose to do evil or not. This shows that freewill is not dependent on one choosing evil and thus all people could choose good without sacrificing their freewill. An all-powerful creator god should be able to create people who will only choose good even while having the ability to choose evil and thus retaining freewill. There is no reason to find this impossible. There is no contradiction created by the scenario.
Look at it this way, will people be allowed to do evil in heaven? Will they have freewill? If evil can not be done in heaven but people retain freewill, then it is possible to retain freewill without choosing evil. For us to have the ability to do evil (and often in the course of doing evil remove the freewill of others) is not an existence that any responsible and loving creator god would create while there are other possibilities. If there are not other possibilities for our created existence, then the god is not all-powerful. Its really fairly simple.
"For all I know it may be a test, how hard are we willing to work towards our own salvation?"
Why should we work at all for salvation? Did we ask to be put in the position of being tested to see if we are worthy of salvation? If not then where is our freewill? It seems like believers are fine with being put to a test they never asked to be given to see if they are worthy of a reward or punishment that is a required end to an existence they never requested.
Aside from this, as stated above, their is no reason to require a test if we are just created as good beings to begin with. Is it your position that if everyone choose to do good things this life would be undesirable? If so do you choose to do evil so that you can make life desirable?
How grateful are we for the sacrifice made on our behalf?
What sacrifice? Surely you don't mean a man dying on a cross to go to eternal paradise? How is that, even if it were to actually happen, a sacrifice? How is it a sacrifice for us to require a man (god) to die in order to grant us access to a paradise that the god could just as easily grant us access to without the sacrifice? The 'sacrifice' only happened because god required it to happen unless there is something that requires god to require the sacrifice to allow his creations into his paradise. Well, anyway, this point is not really pertinent to the post but I will make a note to write a post on the so called sacrifice.
"What kind of life would we have if there were no obstacles to overcome?"
It would probably be like heaven on earth (literally if heaven actually existed). Though, just because there was no evil does not mean there would be no obstacles to overcome. One would still have experiences and differences of opinions and achievement. Why do you think it is necessary to choose evil to overcome obstacles?
"If there was no misery would we recognize the value of joy?"
Can we be joyous in your idea of heaven? If yes, is there misery there as well? these questions are aside from the fact that we can understand the concept of misery and joy without being miserable. I need not shatter my leg to know it hurts. I can realize how much better it feels not to shatter my leg without ever experiencing the pain of doing it.
"Would we receive as much pleasure from quiet contemplation of the rose?"
I can't see why not. I'm unsure of how this pertains to the post at all as beauty is not related to evil. There can be beautiful things and not beautiful things whether there is good and evil or not.
"None of these questions have any answers because we do have the balance of good vs. evil with which to measure.
They are questions that you simply take to require people choosing to do evil to make them meaningful. I would almost bet you would never say that you intentionally do evil so that you can enjoy the contrast between it and good. If you do not why do you think it is necessary for others to? If it is not, then why are there people who do choose evil? What you are doing is, in a roundabout way, saying that it is necessary for others to do evil in order for you to be able to enjoy the good. Now, is it really your contention that the creator god is right to put people on earth who will choose evil as a means by which you can know joy?
As for the dog story, sorry to hear your dog was stolen. I am a pet lover as well. The fact that this guy you were seeing was a scientist has little to do with whether or not he saw beauty in things. Some of the greatest scientist, many of which are also atheists, have a great appreciation for the beauty that exists within the universe. There is nothing about the theistic worldview that makes things any more beautiful. In fact, from my perspective, the theistic worldview does nothing but taint the great beauty of the universe and turn it into the whims of what, according to the bible, is a jealous and oft sadistic ruler. Nothing saddens me more than to see the beauty of a rose reduced to some easily conjured creation of an all powerful being instead of the beautifully crafted timeless sculpture of an amazing natural environment that it is.
"Isn't it great that in this world there are all kinds of people and ideas and science?"
to a point its great. Those who do evil are not great though. I do not need to choose to do evil in order to enjoy life, and I do not need others to choose to do evil for me to enjoy life either.
"Isn't it great that we can all make our own choices?"
A world where no one could choose to chop off children's arms and legs with machetes or sell little girls into sexual slavery thus removing their freewill before they can even make decisions for themselves would be a much better world. Dontcha think?
These are just differences in how we view the world. There is the ability to good and bad in all of us. We make a choice based on how we believe we ourselves should act. One doesn't need religion to do good.
Some people need a nourishment for their spirits that other don't. Some of us have weaknesses that we feel better able to handle through prayer. We need a feeling that there is a higher power that we can pray to. We have a blogger who has been sober for 6 years who feels that his strength of purpose is replenished by his belief. Who am I to say he's wrong?
You are probably going to tell me that's a crutch, and you'd be right but some of us need the crutch because we are weak. I don't think we're supposed to be perfect, we're just supposed to know that there is something we can lean on besides ourselves when things get rough.
I lost my Mom last year and this year I will lose my Dad. It's not an easy thing to deal with even when you believe in heaven. If it were not for my faith, I'd be in jail serving time for murder because I've watched both of these people who caused me to be born, get treated body part by body part with no real care for the whole person. Modern medical science is so wonderful like that. It's keeping him alive, for what? So that he can suffer more?
Before all these modern medical tests and new procedures, you used to have a doctor who came to the house and did the best he could to treat the whole person. He didn't concentrate on one part of your illness and ignore all the rest. Sure, maybe you died younger, but at least the doctor who didn't know enough to help you saw the person you were and not just the symptoms you present. We used to be people.
I have no problem with people who do not believe in God. I do ask myself on occasion if some of the things I find so hard to bear in the world aren't happening because too many have turned away. I have no easy answers.
Sherry
Love Lucy
"We have a blogger who has been sober for 6 years who feels that his strength of purpose is replenished by his belief. Who am I to say he's wrong?"
You are a person with valuable opinions and an intelligent informed perspective, that's who you, or anyone else who might tell such a person they are wrong, are to tell them they are wrong. Of course, if you believe as they do then you won't tell them they are wrong because you do not think they are. But, if you were like me and did think (know to the best of your ability to know) that they are wrong, then if you did not tell them you would be doing them an injustice. For this person to blame his/herself for every negative action in their life (such as addiction, which one is most likely genetically predisposed towards) but to credit someone/thing else for every positive action in their life (to give a god credit for their own strength in overcoming adversity) is a detrimental mindset. It can easily lead to a culture where people consider human action worthless and only godly actions to be of any importance. This leads to a line of thought where anything excusable in the name of a god.
You say that you assume I will tell you people who believe in a theistic worldview or follow a particular religion are weak (holding onto a crutch), but I don't really think that's so. It is not weakness so much as a desire to not be responsible for ourselves and others that helps to perpetuate these religious belief systems. I contend we would be much better off if we could get rid of these silly unsupported deity concepts and realize that it is in our hands what becomes of us. We are responsible for the good as well as the evil in our societies and to consider ourselves to be flawed children in need of saving is not the least bit beneficial.
We need to realize that we are, in fact, perfect. Being as that we are humans in the only way a human can be, we are perfect humans. There is no human species more human than us. Now if we can pull our perfectly human nature towards our societally positive inclinations as opposed to our negative ones instead of hoping a god will answer prayers, then nothing but good could happen. We need to take responsibility for ourselves instead of awaiting the return of a superhero savior.
"I have no problem with people who do not believe in God. I do ask myself on occasion if some of the things I find so hard to bear in the world aren't happening because too many have turned away. I have no easy answers."
I can assure you that those who believe in a different god than you ask the same question. They wonder why so much bad happens and often credit the fact that so many don't have faith in their god. Perhaps you should believe in their god so that you don't take the chance of contributing to the things you find so hard to bear happening. Or we could kill the non-believers or those who believe differently to lessen their numbers and appease the angry god. Even though you may not have a problem with non-believers, if it lead to a world god would be more pleased by, would it really be so wrong? This is a common theistic solution for such problems.
The irony of it all is that much of what happens that is hard to bear is the result of theistic beliefs. not many people are willing to blow themselves up when they have no concept of an afterlife. It is kind of counterproductive.
Thank you. I hope your Sunday was blessed, or at least way cool, as well. by the way, thanks for the ball, but more importantly, thanks for all the dancing kitties. They are just what I needed to continue Project Monkitty.
Not too many Christians are willing to blow themselves up. I wonder if we really believe in Heaven. On the other hand the followers of Islam sure do. Ya think maybe it's all them virgins?
Not for your Monkitty experiments. Just enjoy the flowers.
Sherry
This is similar to me putting a steak on coffee table in front of the TV, leaving it there for four hours, and expecting my dog not to eat it. She knows she's not supposed to grab food from the coffee table, but I'm the one who set her up for her moral dilemma. It's essentially the entrapment argument for law enforcement... would Adam have ever broken the law had God not created the opportunity?
I just read the line in the comments stating "Not too many Christians are willing to blow themselves up." and it makes me think.....
So, it strikes me that semantics is part of the issue. "Evil" often gets characterized as devil-related in the Christian faith - - good is directly linked to God and evil is directly linked, even in spelling, to the devil. For Christians, good and evil are necessary for a continuing test of their faith - - how would God know that they chose Him, with their free will, if there weren't an equal and opposing force that they could also freely choose? Then we're back to your original position on God as omnipotent and omniscient and omnipresent - - God must have created the devil and hence evil.
The more secular definitions of evil:
As an adjective - - Definition:
1. morally bad: profoundly immoral or wrong
2. harmful: deliberately causing great harm, pain, or upset
"This evil act is clearly the work of terrorists."
3. causing misfortune: characterized by, bringing, or signifying bad luck
"...an evil omen..."
4. malicious: characterized by a desire to cause hurt or harm
"...an evil mood..."
5. devilish: connected with the devil or other powerful destructive forces
"...evil spirits..."
6. disagreeable: very unpleasant
"What an evil smell!"
As a Noun - - Definition:
1. wickedness: the quality of being profoundly immoral or wrong
2. force causing harmful effects: the force believed to bring about harmful, painful, or unpleasant events
"...a struggle between good and evil..."
3. something evil: a situation or thing that is very unpleasant, harmful, or morally wrong
"...the social evil of alcoholism..."
[ Old English yfel < Indo-European, "exceeding due limits"]
So, "evil" ranges from devilish (burn-in-hell-sinner-ish) to UNPLEASANT.......that's quite the continuum. There's a cachet of responsibility in there - - malice and deliberate causation imply it. But there's no frame of reference; concepts like good and evil out of context make very little sense to me. Even the example given under "harmful", referring to an evil terrorist act, is inaccurate without context and point of view. Shit! I just made your perspective argument for you! Dammit!
Well, I stick by it. Those concepts are linked inextricably to humans - - no other animal species is pondering good vs. evil and the existence of a supreme deity. They're just going about their animal business and accepting responsibility for the consequences as part of the natural order of things. Good and evil, as they exist in formalized religion, are control mechanisms to impose the will of one collective of humans with one very specific viewpoint onto a larger group of humans who are willing to be led.
Amen.
Could this comment have possibly been more of a disjointed ramble???? My apologies.
I've turned that whole apple thing upside down and inside out and I still can't make any sense of it. They had no knowledge of good and evil yet were expected to understand that eating from the tree was wrong, they were convinced to eat from the tree by the devil whom, them not knowing good and evil, would have been just as acceptable a source for information as any other, because they were ticked into eating from the tree every being that came after them had was born with their sin, and as you point out, for the tree to even have been created in the first place is loopy. Of course, no one in their right mind would take that story as anything but fictional allegory dealing with man's nature, would they? Well, at any rate, no one could possibly take it as a literal historical acount, right? Right?
You might want to see a liver specialist.
Good and evil, right and wrong, good and bad, Punch and Judy, Seals and Croft, Peaches and Herb, Smokey and The Bear... what the hell was I talking about? Oh yeah, morality. I think a little on the ontological basis of morals should be the next post. I like where you're going in this comment; the end of it... ha ha ha, just kidding. You make some excellent, analytically man-worthy, observations in your long, long, long, somewhat wordy, Dalai Lama intimidating, comment. (Shh. Actually you are mentally sharp as ever, and if it weren't for the fact that I am a freaking genius (in the self applied sense of the word) I would find your wit and insight quite intimidating.) Anyway, I will have to go to write up a morality post now to provide the only sensible ontological basis for good and evil and show how theistic morality could only ever be as good as our natural evolutionary moral basis for right and wrong allow it to be even if it did exist. There is a stunningly simple concept which is the basis of morality and once we look at this obvious axiom, morality becomes as solidly grounded in naturalism as it ever has been in theism. Anyway, thats for my next post.
Thanks for the definitions and the commentary. They are always appreciated.
(By the way, that perspectivism is sneaky, isn't it?)
Apparently that same 'no one' also can vote; this may explain the incredible incosistencies between the exit polls in the last presidential election, which are so accurate they have been used as proof in court of voter fraud in other countries, and the actual vote count. Of course, Delay and the Republican party is the other explanation.
To paraphrase Twain:
"Common sense is anything but..."
To paraphrase Churchill:
"The best argument I've ever seen against democracy is five minutes with the average voter..."
Are you trying to take away the Devil. Without the Devil to blame for my missteps, I would have to accept the responsibility for my actions myself. I could no longer say, as Flip Wilson did in the role of Geraldine, "The Devil made me do it."